Could a hive secretly re-queen on me?

[Eric Young]

Last year, my otherwise calm hive started getting nasty. At first, that nastiness was just when I got to the two medium brood boxes. I had two supers above the brood boxes, and the bees rarely cared when I messed around in those boxes.

However, last November it got ugly. Bees started to buzz me as soon as I took the top cover off. I was using smoke, but they did not ever seem to calm down. By the time I had the second super off I probably had 50 bees swarming my suit. Once I pulled the first frame on the upper brood box–I had easily one hundred swarming me. Then they started stinging through the suit. It was all I could do to put the hive back together while I was getting stung through the suit over and over. I did get the hive back together and got away from the hive. It took about 15 minutes to get the bees to leave me when I was about 50 feet away. And for about 1-3 hours after that inspection–they never let me get within 20 feet of the hive.

Yesterday, I inspected the hive again. (First inspection of the year since November). The same thing started to happen. I was buzzed by about 20 bees when the cover came off. Then buzz crowed just kept getting bigger. I did not get stung this time, but I only checked two frames in the upper brood box to see if the queen was laying. There is a queen and she is laying. After that, I closed up and called it a day. But I would have liked to see in the bottom brood box. The frames I checked in the upper brood box seemed to have a lot of drones. I don’t think that means much since the hive seems super well populated right now.

All last year, I never saw one sign of a queen cell. But it is possible that during last year (January–October) some of the inspections got as much as 5-6 weeks apart. There was almost no flow to collect last year, and I just left them alone.

So could my hive have re-queened last year in between my inspections? Bear in mind that if they did–they would have had to disassemble the queen cells. I never saw a sign of one last year.

If that is not the case (re-queening without me knowing)–what could be going on? This hive was so nice before. And now all of a sudden they are acting like a bunch of biker one percenters:)

Thanks for any advice on this forum.

[susan rudnicki]

Hi, Eric—I remember you. I would emphasize the need to understand the timing of development for all 3 castes of bees in the hive–workers, drones, queens— and Michael Bush has organized this very well for us here–
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm He has examples on the same page of how this knowledge helps you understand and predict issues that may be occurring.
Reading his book thoroughly for issues related to queen supercedure and swarming will go a long way to helping you understand your posted question.
Inspecting a hive is not done only in the presence of a flow or not. You are inspecting to check on the viability of the queen and her presence. You are looking for EGGS and open brood, not the Queen herself. Your inspections, Jan to October–are too far apart to prevent crowding if the brood nest becomes honey bound. They may have swarmed since folks often miss the signs of a swarm trajectory when inspections during the build-up are that far apart. I would never go from November to the end of February without a inspection, especially on a hive with just 2 mediums for the brood nest. (this is equal to just one deep) Newbees often miss swarm cells and certainly miss the placement of supercedure cells—both instances due to the thick coating of bees on the frame. I am surmising that your colony is pissy due to crowding, and not working with them much. Also, you do not say what time of day you chose to work. Warm, calm, middle of the day when most of the foragers are out is best. Another issue—people start inspecting in the top box, smoking and driving bees into the bottom spaces where they become even more crowded as the foragers return to add to the population. I advise taking each box off, put a cover or towel over it to keep them in the dark and START with the bottom box first.
Finally, are you keeping records of dates, what you observe and manipulations? You will help yourself to record where they have been, where they are now, and where you predict they are headed, as a colony. I find a LOT of beeks rely on fuzzy memory and this is not going to help in assessing issues or learning more efficiently. Education in this craft can never be called complete—keep reading, join bee chat groups, come to meetings. Rob gave a GREAT presentation on “Bee Sex” last month that would have helped you in the current question.

[susan rudnicki]

Also, I forgot to mention, the upcoming meeting on Feb 28 is a must do for all HL beeks!

[Eric Young]

Thanks Susan. First–you are amazing. I have put into action most everything you ever told me. And I am glad I got to be a part of your mentoring this past Sunday.

Thank you for your comments. I have been starting with the first box. You suggested that to me last year, and I have been doing it since about August or September.

I generally do my hive inspection between 10 and 2 for reasons you have discussed many times (a lot of bees out foraging). I also use a hive inspection form and keep pretty good records. I track what frames are getting built out and what is in the frames. I had two additional mediums in the stack for a lot of last year. But the bees never built them out, and I took them off last November. I will add at least one on my next inspection this weekend.

Thanks again

[susan rudnicki]

Since you have just 2 meds for the brood chamber, you may be needing to move 3 or 4 frames up into the next medium you add. If the two brood boxes are filled out, they need encouragement to move up or your hive could swarm. You are seeing all those drones because this is the Spring build-up period when bees are getting ready to swarm and disperse their genetics. Check for the density of the brood nest and move up 3 or 4 frames of brood from below into the new box. Sandwich the new brood frames with honey frames taken from below. Put in empty frames where you took brood frames. Don’t put two empties together, but interleaved with built out frames.

[Eric Young]

First, of all–thank you so much Susan for your advice. For my own sake, and possibly for others, I am going to continue this thread as I sort out the sudden evil change of my bee hive. (Remember that 12 months ago, my hive was wonderful. No one bothered me as I worked the upper boxes. When I got to the two brood boxes on the bottom–there was minor harassment. But it was just a few bees. Now they are a terror from the moment I take the top cover off.)

I went back in the hive today to follow up on your advice. There were a bunch of bees already at the front entrance when I started my work. I smoked the hive (very little this time), but few if any bees went inside. I got the top cover off and started working my way down.

The two upper supers are filled with honey. There are probably 16 frames with patches of comb on the other 4.

By the time I got to the top brood box I was covered with 1-200 bees easily. They did a lot of stinging on the chest of my bee suit. Thank goodness I wear a Brushy Mountain suit with long sleeves underneath.

I wanted to take the top brood box off (box #2), but I was afraid I might be about to get stung alot. (When I inspected the hive in November–I was stung through my suit so many times–I later realized it might have been an occasion to use the epi-pen.)

Per your advice, I composed myself enough to move up 3 frames from box #2 into a new brood box (new box #3). I interlaced empty frames with full frames and stacked the new box #3 on top of the upper brood box (box #2).

I managed to re-stack the hive and get away relatively unharmed. I eventually got in inside and was only stung twice while taking off the suit. The suit, however, did not fair so well. There were something like 30-40 stingers in the suit around the chest area, and a few on the hat part.

Tell me if this is OK . . . I am thinking of harvesting some of the honey in the two upper supers (now boxes #4 & box #5). I was thinking of harvesting one full super (10 frames) and then leaving them with just 4-6 frames of honey. Does that sound OK?

[susan rudnicki]

Eric—if I remember your remark, these bees have had no intervention since November, or 3-4 months. This is too long and they definitely do not know you. They have been crowded and sounds like they have a full honey nest above the brood nest, which will initiate swarming. (please read about this on Michael Bush’s site) You may have a hot hive, but other things could be done before you throw them over.
Did you cover the boxes that you set aside to do the other work? Since you were working in the brood boxes, the others don’t need to be sitting there in the light, causing more chaos.
Also, (and this is a common mistake, I have made it, too) it is easy to not see if the so-called “honey supers” have a few patches of drone brood, a common situation at this time of year. Nurse bees WILL NOT leave the brood for any reason, sticking like they are glued even when you try to dislodge them. Every frame must be seen to verify there are no brood within. Looking up from below, you can often see Drone Brood by the way they protrude from the face of the combs.
Another calming strategy is to put a empty box with frames under the two boxes you are describing in pos. 4 and 5. This gives them more room to “roost” and can make inspecting those 2 boxes more easy next time.
Finally, have you ever had a on-site mentoring lesson? Our meeting on Sunday will be partly concerned with helping newbees pair up. It sounds to me like you really should have one now. Only so much can be done by oneself, and you say you have had the hive a year.

[Eric Young]

Super advice again. I have had this hive for almost two years now. I have hoped to harvest honey last September, but there were less than 8 full frames of honey in 3 medium supers. So I condensed the hive down from 5 boxes to 4. Now–as I mentioned–they seem to have filled the two boxes with at least 16 frames of honey.

I don’t plan to throw them over–so take heart there. I thought I would start with the advice you gave before. So I have added the new brood box. I figure I might try to look in the hive again after our Honey Love meeting on Sunday. And yes I will look into some onsite maintenance. I know that you are somewhat against requeening a hive in our backwards beekeeping–but I have been reading Micheal Bush’s advice on requeening a hot hive here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

I also felt comforted by watching this Youtube video on working a very hot hive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alQCQh_3V8Y

My bees are about half as aggressive as these.

[susan rudnicki]

Hi, Eric—-again, your hive has not been managed in months, so that is a issue from the perspective of management. I watched the video, but these guys may not be managing on the same timing as you have. Personally, I don’t bang around the boxes and covers like that either. The reason I am somewhat skeptical about the behavior is I am often told hives are ferocious and I arrive to do work with them and find things turn out to be different. The best response is, to have a mentor work with you. I assume you have not had one, though you say the hive has been with you almost 2 years.
Another thing that would set them back a notch—do a split. (you don’t have good insurance with just one hive anyway) You have 2 brood boxes and two honey boxes. Put #1 and a honey box on a bottom board, #2 and the other honey box on another bottom board. Set them up next to each other. (read up on splits in MB’s book) After a day, switch the positions of the hives, so the incoming population of foragers equalizes. Open them up in a few days and look for queen cells.

[susan rudnicki]

“I know that you are somewhat against requeening a hive in our backwards beekeeping–” Actually, this is not quite correct. I am against BUYING breeder queens. Genetically manipulated queens often come from treated stock and therefore are dependent on consistent meds.

[Eric Young]

This is so perfect. And you are right about the video. I just thought it was funny. But it also shows about the level of bees that are getting on me. My hope it that just adding the brood box will offer some help. And I planned to add the other box you mentioned this Sunday.

I do believe management is one big issue. And I suspect I might be making it worse right now with a lack of zen calm due to the current hive issue. I am very open to advice. And I think if a mentor came on site–they might be able to quickly point out some sort of bad hive management that might very likely be causing all the problems.

We will talk on Sunday and I think a split might be a great thing to do. I have everything I need to do that. I was going to split last year, but they barely had any honey. So I have an extra bottom board and two extra covers.

See you Sunday

[susan rudnicki]

Great!! I always like to hear when students have extra equipment at the ready! See you Sunday S.

[susan rudnicki]

Great!! I always like to hear when students have extra equipment at the ready! See you Sunday S.

[Author]

Posts